We will use The Matrix as a shared experience that we can continually refer to in our discussion of knowledge and skepticism about what we know.
There are four posts on our class blog to discuss the following topics. All students are required to post at least one comment to the “The Cave, the Evil Demon, and the Matrix” post. Students are also required to post at least one comment to their assigned group’s post.
All students: The Cave, the Evil Demon, and the Matrix
Look for parallels (compare) as well as major differences (contrast) between The Matrix and both the Allegory of the Cave (Plato) and the Evil Demon Meditation (Descartes). You should especially look for symbolism that overlaps. Post your comments in response to THIS post. Try to build on each other's responses and pose questions to one another.
Group 1: What is so bad about living in the Matrix?
(Daniel, Meru, Camille, Kathryn, Lee)
The steak scene sums this up. If we don’t know that we are being tricked in this world, what is so bad about living in this world if we are ignorant of how it was constructed?
Group 2: What is real?
(Julianna, Ebony, Peter, LIzzy, Courtney)
There are issues about whether what we sense or what we perceive is real. Explore these issues.
Group 3: Ethics of the Matrix
(Allie, Annie, Marivel, Andrea, Marlys)
Explore the ethical problems and solutions of The Matrix.
Just for fun (optional): Religious themes in the Matrix
Don’t limit yourself here. There is evidence of several religious themes from a variety of world religions.
Your participation in this blog discussion will be assessed. Make sure that you are an active participant and that you are communicating with others on the different pages.
Your group will lead the class in a 5-10 minute discussion of your topic next Tuesday (March 9).
The Matrix and Descartes bring up a very compelling argument by posing the question of how can we really know if the world that we live in is actually real and not a dream or illusion? Is it possible for our senses to fail us?
ReplyDeleteI noticed that throughout the movie, dreaming was a reoccurring motif. One quote that really stood out to me was by Morpheus when he told Neo, "Have you ever had a dream Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"
While dreaming, the actions that occur seem to be very real. One does not realize that they are dreaming until they wake up from the dream. Descartes comes to this same conclusion. Similarly in The Matrix, Neo does not realize that he is dreaming until he is unplugged from it. What's to say that our dreams aren't real?
There is so much symbolism that overlaps from all three. The quote from the Matrix about never using your eyes made me think or the Allegory of the Cave and its occupancies’ never seeing true sunlight (knowledge). In addition, the quote made me think about dreaming in relation to seeing. What I mean by this is that usually when someone is dreaming their eyes are closed not allowing them to see the light or truth that is available.
ReplyDeleteI thought that the Matrix was different and more powerful than the Allegory of the Cave because some specific people were able to get out and know the truth. In Descartes work he discusses more the ideas of reality and truth rather than the citizen’s stories as the other two display.
Like Julianna, I also noticed that the quote from the Matrix about Neo never using his eyes before reminded me of the Allegory of the Cave. Morpheus tells Neo that he is using his eyes for the first time, like he is seeing the truth for the first time, and it physically makes Neo uncomfortable.
ReplyDeleteAndrea, I liked the question that you posed, "What's to say that our dreams aren't real?" It makes me think about what someone in the Matrix said about how what's in front of us is neurons firing in our brains (processing senses). Looking at it from that standpoint, dreams and reality are the same. We see, hear, and feel in dreams, just like reality.
Where is the line between dreams and reality?
The Matrix, the Allegory of the Cave and Descartes all have many things in common. But, one of the main themes to me was that they all mentioned at one point that they would rather "stay asleep", "take the blue pill", or just continue to have the wool pulled over their eyes rather than facing the truth. After a while Neo got frustrated from not knowing who he was exactly, and he wished he would have taken the blue pill because he felt that he couldn't handle all of the confusion. At the end of Meditation I, Descartes said that he "prefers to fall back into slumber of his dreaming; that there is a reality filled with his former beliefs, because the alternative is scary". The prisoners in the dark cave would rather stay tied up all their lives and face the wall, rather than turn around and have to face the truth that their beliefs were indeed illusions.
ReplyDeleteThey also defer in some aspects also. In the end, although Neo had wished he would have taken the blue pill earlier, he was glad he had taken the red pill. Neo believed in himself and his Colleagues so much that he was finally able to scope out what he was there to do for himself and for The Matrix. Descartes ends up giving up on his journey to seek the truth because he began to believe that he would never know the truth because everything could be an illusion. So he decides to go back to believing his former beliefs on everything. And the poor prisoners in the cave are going to probably sit there for the rest of their lives believing in illusions. If they are forced to turn around they will be strongly affected by truth mentally. So, Neo was the only one satisfied with the amount of knowledge he had gained.
This freaks me out. I mean what's to say anything is real? Andrea posed the question "What's to say that our dreams aren't real?" And this makes me wonder, what IS real? How do we define it? Definitely dreams are real in the sense that they do occur, so why don't we label them as a part of reality? What's reality, then? Is reality what really DOES occur, when we're waking? Then are dreams just fake things, like do they even exist? I think that in our society we jump too quickly to label things and categorize them- there's much more overlapping than we acknowledge. For us, I think it's easier to simply call 'this' by one name and 'that' by another, and file 'this' and 'that' away on their proper shelves quite separately and not again properly look at exactly what it is we're seeing/hearing...etc. It's just easier. We're too accepting I think. I think Descartes had this idea as well- what if he no longer believed anything? Well, he decided that it would be too scary, and decided to fall back upon his former beliefs...because it was easier.
ReplyDeleteThe people in the cave were accepting of what they saw as well, but why shouldn't they have been? If this was what they saw, then why shouldn't they believe? We see what we see today, and we believe. Should we not? Should we question it all, and everything? Perhaps we've got it all wrong like in the Matrix. Perhaps it's just easier to say it's all correct and right, and forget about even wondering anymore, and just continue to live our lives. Perhaps we should discover it all for ourselves, and stop relying upon what we're told and the beliefs we're handed. If we did this, and people were born being told nothing, and left to discovery, I believe that we would still trust out senses, and the science that we encountered and could be proved, but what about religion? And the sciences and maths that we would not discover on our own based on their difficulty? What then, would we do? Our civilization would fall apart, if it were based upon each individuals' own discoveries. As a society, we must trust each other, and learn what others 'know'; our society would fall apart if we did not do this. Why do we then not question everything, and instead trust and believe and know? It is easier, but it also works. What works, is what we go with. Evolution left those species to die that 'didn't work' and let those thrive that did. This system works for humans, and so we use it.
For Descartes, his system of knowledge had worked for him, so though he began to question it, it became scary, and what he had believed previously had 'worked', so he fell back on it.
Wow. Well that is a lot of questions and thoughts that are hard to process. I think what scares me the most out of all of this, is what if there was nothing. What if there is nothing special about the world and what if dreams are dreams and life is life and there really is no purpose to us here on earth. The Matrix really made me think about what the purpose of life is and why I am here. I compared the world now and the matrix and pretended that the we were living in the matrix, and what I think is if this were the matrix, then I would be ok with it. Because I feel like I have real feelings and real interractions with people. But this reminds me of the Allegory of the Caves because they don't know that there is something else out there, something better, but they are happy. So in comparison to my life, is there something better out there that we are just not seeing? Is all of this just one big dream? Are our dreams real somewhere else?
ReplyDeleteWhen what you thought you know turns into something completely different, what do you have to trust or rather what can you trust? What can you believe when what you believed before was false? I think that when ones reality is changed so dramatically such as in the matrix and the allegory of the cave. More specifically in the matrix how can you trust what you are being told? How do you know who is right and who is wrong once every solid piece of information you ever knew is false? In the Allegory of the Cave the others who had not seen what he had believed nothing that he said. They did not think that any of it was even possible. He however cannot go back and live life the same after seeing the world he lived was nothing short of real. In the matrix the goal was to someday be able to beat the agents and destroy the matrix. However they face the possibility of being killed, by those who are so ignorant to even think that such a false thing could exist. Just as in the Allegory of the cave.
ReplyDeleteA parellel that I found in both the Matrix and the Allegory of the Cave was that someone tried to show them the truth but they couldn't handle the truth. It was too hard for them to accept as true. Just as Camille and Marlys had reacted, people get scared when what they believe to be true was fake all along. Just as Ebony has mentioned, I believe and I think many agree, that some people would prefer life in the matrix rather then a hard real life. Like many people say, “it’s better not knowing.” Also, as Andrea had asked, How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?" It brings to mind a greater question, how do you distinguish what is fake from what is real?
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of humans in The Matrix was to provide a source of energy to the machines. The matrix was then created to provide the humans with mental stimulation and even happiness. The agent in the movie was saying that when the Matrix was first created it was made to that every one lived in peace and was happy. This world however could not survive and was replaced with a more ‘realistic’ world. I wondered at first why the machines created the Matrix. I decided to look it up on Wikipedia, and it said that the machines created the Matrix to keep the humans docile in their captivity. This made me consider the Allegory of the Cave and The Evil Demon Meditaion. Were the prisoners tied up to keep them docile? Are humans in a dreamland to keep them quiet an easy to control?
ReplyDeleteIn the Matrix, the Allegory of the Cave, and the Evil Demon Meditation, the way out of the impersonating reality is to know the truth. And the way to the truth is through knowledge. The red pill, the assent out of the cave and into the sunlight, and waking up are the pieces of knowledge that lead us to the truth.
A difference between the three stories is the sense of living. In The Matrix and The Evil Demon Mediation, the prisoners have more control over their ‘life’ than in The Allegory of the Cave. Outsiders looking in, (the TOK class) wouldn’t think of the people in The Matix or The Evil Demon Meditaion, as being true prisoners, because they have more ‘freedom’ than the people in The Allegory of the Cave.
What Camille said made me think about something that occurred to me once. What if I wake up and my whole life as I know it has been a dream of someone else. How do we not know that we are not dreaming all the time?
ReplyDeleteA theme that I found interesting was that to see the world as it is or to become enlightened you needed the help of other people. In the Matrix there is no way Neo would have free himself with out help. In the same way in the Allegory of the cave the prisoner needs to be released. Also someone makes him walk up the path into the light. Without this help the enlightenment would never occur.
I see the strongest connection between The Matrix and the Allegory of The Cave. In the allegory of the cave, people are tied up to posts, facing the back of a cave which is lit up by a fire behind the people. The people see others' shadows cast by the flame on the back wall and percieve it to be real life. This is what the matrix is. It is a world people percieve to be true eventhough it isn't. It may represent some aspecs of the real world, but it is not actually the real world. The path leading out to the cave into sunlight is like the choice of pills in the matrix. Take one, and you continue to live in the matrix (be tied up to posts) and believe that what you see is true. Take the other, "and you'll see just how deep the rabbit hole goes." In other words, you come out into the sunlight of the real world. And as Morpheus say to Neo when Neo says why his eyes are the way they are, Morpheus replies, "because you've never used them before." The people who have been tied up have not been exposed to the truth. When they finally are, their eyes take a while to adjust because they aren't used to the truth. It is even at times painful, and they wish to go back to their posts because it is too much for them to take in and believe.
ReplyDeleteThe three big examples in which we are supposed to compare have similar ideas about life and reality that are based upon matters having to do with ones perspective and personal ability accept something as the truth. In the Matrix, One of the biggest struggles that the main character has to deal with is acceptance of a new reality that has less appeal than the one that they were previously a part of. In the Allegory of the Cave, the one person who discovers the outside world finds conflict with his fellow cave dwellers that don't trust his judgment because what they are used to is reality to them. The Meditation by Descartes poses the question of whether what we are doing now is even reality at all because we have no proof to back it up. Is something the truth because you believe it? Can we really know if something happened if our senses are interpreting information that makes us sense something that isn't actually there? The truth and reality are subjective to the one experiencing it. You couldn't say that someone's perspective is wrong because what they have seen or experienced is different than your own outlook on things.
ReplyDelete